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Talk:University of California, Berkeley

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Lyndon and Zoe, why are you reverting each other's changes? --Ed Poor

I don't know what Lyndon's motives are. All I did was to clean up some links and NPOV his comments that the Cal/Stanford football game is the most important game in the world. As it is now, the entry looks okay, so I'm happy with what's there. -- Zoe

I agree. I went to Cal and I'm perfectly happy with Zoe's version. Lyndon has no reason to keep editing it. -- Dante Alighieri

If I'm not mistaken... even though the film took place at UC Berkeley, the Graduate was actually shot on the UCLA campus. It was only the street (Telegraph) scenes that were shot in Berkeley. -- chris (not a user yet)

Chris is absolutely right. You see street scenes of Telegraph Ave. and of course the Bay Bridge, but the on-campus shots were done in Southern California. Moncrief

USC, rather: the big dramatic zoom-out where he's sitting at a fountain, for instance, is the courtyard between the administration building and Doheny library. --Brion 10:19 Dec 2, 2002 (UTC)

I added in a list of alumni from the margins of the general catalog and ommitted anyone who didnt meet the 1000 person test. Apparently, (almost) no foreigners are on the list. Some of them, such as James Soong could be added. --Jiang 21:19, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

What about those who never graduated? Jack London attended Cal, but I don't know the exact years and I don't think he graduated. I'm going to add him around the ~1900 time frame, but I'm not sure of the years. RickK 04:35, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

There's another list at http://calbears.ocsn.com/trads/cal-famousalums.html. Perhaps there are people famous enough on that list and not on this one. --Jiang 05:07, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The "Jack London" entry under "noted Cal alums," added by RickK, says that Jack London "edited the campus literary journal, The Pelican." I don't think this can be right. RickK doesn't seem to have an email address. What's the right way to deal with this? Jack London did attend University of California from 1896 to 1897"--but Russ Kingman's biography says that "there is no record that Jack ever wrote for student publications as he had in high school." Also, "The Pelican" was founded in 1903 according to http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/uchistory/general_history/campuses/ucb/studentpubs.html, and seems to have been a humor magazine--the literary magazine was called "The Occident." A similar statement appears on the Jack London page. I'm going to change both notes to say something like "Attended 1896-1897, did not graduate, not known to have participated in student publications." But, RickK, if you're reading this and do have a reference to his participation, please let me know. Haven't got the hang of Wikipedia markup yet so I'll just say my email is dpbsmith@world.std.com --Dpbsmith 28 Sep 2003

Need factual clarification

"researchers affiliated with the campus discovered all the chemical elements heavier than Uranium"

This statement is apparently echoed at http://www.berkeley.edu/about/history/ - "In the 1930s research on campus burgeoned in nuclear physics, chemistry, and biology, leading to the development of the first cyclotron by Ernest O. Lawrence, the isolation of the human polio virus, and the discovery of all the artificial elements heavier than uranium"

Looking at the periodic table, I don't think this is true. (See Unununium, Darmstadtium, Bohrium, etc.) Someone want to investigate this further? --Jiang 23:00, 10 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Merge of buildings

• Cory Hall - I don't see what's so special about this building. --Jiang 06:04, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • Hm, there's also Soda Hall and Evans Hall. VV 07:29, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • I dont support deletion of Soda Hall and Evans Hall (but dont oppose either). Those buildings are a little bit more well known. --Jiang
• I think they can all be redirected and merged to the main UCB article. Cory Hall is probably the best one known outside of the campus as the site of two attacks by the Unabomber. --Minesweeper 02:21, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • These kinds of "stubs" are not worth anything. If the person adding these really wanted to do something useful, they could have put listeed the buildings on the UCal Berkeley article. My guess is, that in the world there will be a dozen buildings (or rooms) with each of these names. Delete until someone serious can build the UCB article (or one about its campus) -- Marshman 02:25, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • merge to main article and delete. DJ Clayworth 15:15, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)
• I have merged the content of Cory Hall, Soda Hall, and Evans Hall with University of California, Berkeley. Those "Hall" articles now redirect there, which I beleive makes them fine to leave. -- Infrogmation 19:17, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • Google returns about 15,600 hits for Evans Hall. In the first 100 pages, in addition to the one at UC Berkeley, I found Evans Hall at Southwestern Adventist University, Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine, Agnes Scott College (Letitia Pate Evans Hall), University of Wisconsin Oshhosh, University of Delaware, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Loma Linda University, Mississippi State University, Berry College, University of Central Oklahoma, Florida Institute of Technology, Connecticut College, Simmons College, Prairie View A&M University, Carleton College, University of Oklahoma, and Indiana Wesleyan University. I did not do searches for Cory or Soda Halls, but suspect I might get similar results. I don't think it works to make it a redirect to UCB. Either make into a large disambiguation page, or Delete.David Stapleton 16:13, Nov 6, 2003 (UTC)

Alumni/faculty lists & new articles

I've started Haas School of Business, Berkeley College of Chemistry, and Berkeley College of Engineering and have included alumni/faculty lists in those articles. This lists in this article are starting to get too long. Let's make those lists more detailed, and list only the very important/distinguished people (whatever that may mean) here. --Jiang 01:47, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Regarding alumni vs faculty listings

November 19, 2003.

Hi jiang, I reverted your change.

As you mentioned, listing faculty alumni would make the list too long. However, these two are Nobel laureates. When a sloppy journalist or trivia game maker wants to write a question or article about how many alumni of Berkeley are Nobel laureates, they aren't going to be too careful -- they are just going to grab the alumni list and aren't going to register the fine print.

I'm not saying I am any less sloppy than other sloppy people. In fact, because I AM a sloppy person, I myself didn't bother to look at the faculty listings. Faculty come and go where salaries and opportunity knock; they are not beholden to any institution even if they have tenure. Today's faculty listing may be outdated tomorrow. But the alma mater never changes. It's as constant as a person's birthplace and birthdate. -anon

It's difficult to skip over the notes I added. All you have to do is read! The faculty list consists of anyone who was ever a faculty member of the uni, not just current faculty members. It cannot get outdated. It's more prestigious to be a faculty member than an alumni, that's why alumni faculty are listed there. --Jiang 08:27, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

And what determines whether someone deserves to be crosslisted? If you crosslist some, and not others, people will believe all faculty alumni have been crosslisted. The potential to miss some will be greater. --Jiang

"The faculty list consists of anyone who was ever a faculty member of the uni, not just current faculty members. " And what is considered "faculty"? Assistant professor, associate professor, research professor, courtesy professor, visiting professor, lecturer, visiting lecturer...? The "faculty list" would include TONS of people then, even professors who have taught less years than an undergraduate's 4 year stay, and have moved on to other institutions in search of different faculty politics or a higher salary or a better career for the spouse or the kids, or whatever. Just as an example, John Ousterhout (not an alumnus, just like George Akerlof) is mentioned in the main text, but he's currently not listed in the faculty section, and he's since moved on to the private sector. If the faculty list included such people, it would be ambiguous and misleading: Would readers understand that he's no longer at Berkeley? To clarify the listing, you'd have to list the years he served at Berkeley, and yegads, that's going to be lots of work.

"It's more prestigious to be a faculty member than an alumni, that's why alumni faculty are listed there." I always thought that a school's reputation should be based on the quality of its output (i.e., alumni), just as, say, a restaurant's reputation is based on the quality of its output (i.e., good food), and not necessarily on the names of the cooking staff. Do people remember West Point for the names of the generals and leaders it produced, or for the people on its faculty? But that's a viewpoint of the institution as a school, not as a research institution, so I can see your point that most people would like to be known by the company they keep.

"And what determines whether someone deserves to be crosslisted? If you crosslist some, and not others, people will believe all faculty alumni have been crosslisted. The potential to miss some will be greater." No answer; I'm going to sleep on it for now!

--anonymous, November 19, 2003.

Note the word notable. We list them there only if they've become accomplished/famous. We just don't list any faculty. The title does not matter - it's what they did. Almost all the faculty on the list gained their fame for the work they did at Cal. I can only see the Unabomber as the exception. Notice any others? (What we put on this list should be limited; See #Alumni/faculty lists & new articles)

The prestige of a school may depend on its alumni, but we're discussing the prestige of the individual. And as you mentioned, being a faculty member at a research institution matters more.

Including the years they worked would be a good thing. Please do so.

And what does this all have to do with crosslisting? --Jiang 21:03, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

">And what does this all have to do with crosslisting."

I don't understand why you object to cross listing faculty and alumni on two lists on this single page, when you yourself are cross-listing the entries of the alumni on this page with the lists on completely separate pages such as Haas School of Business. As you said earlier, ">>If you crosslist some, and not others, people will believe all ... alumni have been crosslisted. The potential to miss some will be greater."

Crosslisting on different pages and crosslisting on the same page is very different. We do not run into space problems when people are listed on separate pages than when they are listed on the same page. The listings on the individual school/college pages are meant to be much more extensive, to accomodate people we would be reluctant to list here because of size issues. Someone listed here were definately be listed on the school/college page, but not vice versa. This should make perfect sense. --Jiang

"> but we're discussing the prestige of the individual."

Are we? This page is about the University of California, Berkely, not any particular individual. The original mission of the university was to educate students, not to enhance the reputations of the faculty. Do you really think that Congregational minister Henry Durant was thinking, "I want to establish a university devoted to helping our employees make a big name for themselves" ?

The lists are about famous people at Berkeley. The original mission is irrelevant. There are many many more alumni than faculty. Scarcity tells us that this would aid in the faculty's prestige. In addition, faculty can be seen as more connected to the uni (having spent more time there) than the alumni.

We cannot gauge that being an alumni caused that alumni to become famous. However, we can easily see that certain faculty established their careers at Cal. --Jiang

"> And as you mentioned, being a faculty member at a research institution matters more."

Actually, I did not say that. I said that I could see your point of view that most people would like to be known by the company that they keep. This does not imply that those people would like their names to be removed from their alma mater's alumni list. Note that the pages for Harvard, Yale, and the University of Cambridge, amongst others, do not have lists of faculty, yet these institutions have a superior research reputation to Berkeley and greater name recongition, especially in foreign countries. These pages do have lists of esteemed alumni, which would imply that being a faculty member at a research insitution does not matter more than being a member of the alumni.

The other college/uni articles are not as developed as this one. If someone decided to take the time to add content, they would have faculty list to. Wikipedia:WikiProject Universities is under development. The list in this article seems to be longer than the lists in the others.

Again, you miss the point. If you created an article on an obscure Harvard grad, it would immediate become a candidate for deletion. If you created an article for a Harvard professor, the article would probably be allowed to stay. It doesnt matter if a uni's prestige is developed by its alumni. It only matters whether its more prestigous to be a professor or alumni at a reknowned university. --Jiang

">Note the word notable. We list them there only if they've become accomplished/famous."

Tom Campbell is a former 5 term United States Congressman, and is the dean of the Haas School of Business. You wrote both of these pages. But you didn't put him on the Faculty List on this page. Is he not "notable" enough? Why not? And what about John Ousterhout? Thousands of programmers know about Tcl, and he's mentioned in the main text, but he's not listed on the Faculty List. I guess the point I'm making is that the Faculty List is quite optional and should be ejected, because even you can't maintain it properly. What hope is there for the rest of us? :) As you yourself say, "> The potential to miss some will be greater."

If you believe they belong, add them. If you add John Ousterhout here, add it to the College of Engineering page. I would populate that list more if I know exactly what degrees some of the people listed on this page got. I wasn't sure about Dean Campbell so I left him out. He's only been around this campus since 2002. --Jiang

My suggestion: In lieu of actually omitting the Faculty List, any notable alumni who are also on the faculty should always first be included in the alumni list, and thereafter, optionally (at one's disgression) included on the "Faculty List". My suspicion is that, in the future, the Faculty List is going to grow to an unmanageable size due to the ambiguous inclusion criteria, and will be eliminated or relocated, because nobody will want to go through the agony of maintaining it for correctness. The Alumni List is always going to be on the page.

- anonynmous November 19, 2003

What's stopping the alumni list from being populated with a bunch of obscure people? I don't see how the faculty list will grow to an unmanageable size, if the same doesnt apply for the alumni list. The faculty list will be limited as the not so famous faculty would be listed only in the relevant school/college articles. Both lists should stay the same length. It's easier to tell if a degree and year are in parenthesis after someone's name than it is find the word "professor" somewhere after one's listing on the alumni list. Alumni stand out more on the faculty list than vice versa. We could additionally italicize their names. --Jiang 04:32, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

NL parking spaces

Latest edit: "When one laureate was recognized, the administration, per custom, granted his request, which happened to be a permanent parking place; the solution by the administration was to mark a space NL with a sign underneath For department XXX use only; to prevent occupancy by another Nobel Laureate."

Where does it say that they grant these spaces "per custom" and only at the NL's request? Don't they automatically grant it? Where is the "department XXX use only"? It's not on the sign or on the asphalt.--Jiang 22:54, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child		Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems		SLEEP LESS, LIVE MORE		Eat More, Weigh Less: Dr. Dean Ornish's Life Choice Program for Losing Weight Safely While Eating Abundantly
Power Sleep : The Revolutionary Program That Prepares Your Mind for Peak Performance		Sleeping Through the Night : How Infants, Toddlers, and Their Parents Can Get a Good Night's Sleep		The Promise of Sleep: A Pioneer in Sleep Medicine Explores the Vital Connection Between Health, Happiness, and a Good Night's Sleep		The Baby Book: Everything You Need to Know About Your Baby from Birth to Age Two (Revised and Updated Edition)
The Thyroid Solution : A Mind-Body Program for Beating Depression and Regaining Your Emotional andPhysical Health